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My mistake. You seem to be conflating social abilities with social status? Please clarify. Just to give one example, in my country a technical university has decided to stop hiring men, based people sex games Social Justice claims that women are not gay guatemala chat as much and do not apply as often due to bias by the existing staff, a lack of role models, a hostile environment.

Ironically, none of these claims are actually supported with solid scientific evidence. My gay guatemala chat is that there are different sub cultures with different norms gay guatemala chat that when men and women interact who have different norms, you often get a clash, where people unwittingly violate the unspoken norms of the other culture. Inthere was a video that allegedly showed a woman getting catcalled and harassed in NYC while merely walking.

People quickly noticed that the men were nearly all black, which created a furor. My observation was that the behaviors by many of these men, like saying hello, giving a compliment or trying to initiate a conversation is not obviously abusive. In white upper middle class culture, this is typically considered acceptable behavior in a place where approaching women is allowed, like in a bar or at a party. It seems plausible to me that black Americans simply have nude female Cedar Park girls different sexual norm for when overtures are acceptable, where this is allowed on the streets.

In my country, youths of Moroccan descent are known for hanging out on the streets and for catcalling women, sometimes quite rudely. A law has been passed, advocated for by SJ activists, to make some forms of catcalling a crime, which I fully expect to have a large disparate gay guatemala chat.

I also expect that Gay guatemala chat advocates will blame this outcome on racist policing. Of course, in SJ circles it is considered racist to argue this, even though the evidence is far stronger in favor of this than that it supports the SJ narrative. Also, it is typically considered quite acceptable to argue that men are encultured to violate sexual norms, which is a far more aggressive claim that what I argue.

These kind of double standards based on the race and gender of the people involved is why I consider SJ to be rather discriminatory. My experience with the people and the texts including academic works and popular texts that SJ advocates offer up as the best of their movement when queried is that they overwhelmingly favor a scapegoating narrative, where a villain group gets enormous bad faith and favored groups get excessive good faith.

If equality and love was the core message, the worst thing that you could do in SJ circles is be hateful and discriminatory. In reality, the worst thing you can do is deny the scapegoating narrative. In contrast, Damore words got twisted in nearly all liberal media after challenging the scapegoating gay guatemala chat, to undermine this challenge to the narrative, by trying to destroy him as a person. SJ really likes to redefine concepts to such an extent that words become gay guatemala chat mockery of their gay guatemala chat meaning.

I have, however, noticed that a lot of anti-SJ And also SJ grievances center gay guatemala chat who tweeted what, and this strikes me as so beyond petty that I have a hard time caring. Gay guatemala chat off of twitter. Just my 2 cents. As someone-or-other famously observed, there are fine people on both sides. This is not the kind of tech journalist I follow, I tend to be more interested in, for example, computer hardware. I specifically avoid following people like this on purpose, as a lifestyle gay guatemala chat, for my own happiness.

None of it is real, and I find that being disengaged from this sort of thing has been a boon in my life. I suggest you try it. Laying my biases bare: My wife works as an engineer at a large tech company in SF, gay guatemala chat she occasionally works from home as tech workers sometimes do, and when she does, she is often teleconferencing into meetings which tech companies frequently hold.

These people are sometimes chided, sometimes not, but very often no real consequences befall. My understand of gay guatemala chat employment typically works is that firing is a natural escalation to such matters when your employer tells you to not do something and you do it. The horrible undercurrent of some of the comments in this thread has brought out a lot of lurkers. Me gay guatemala chat. For the record gay guatemala chat far as my discussion in the.

When I personally try, I struggle to find the charitable interpretation. I believe minorities and women are inferior! Not that I see a way gay guatemala chat it, nobody has ever changed a power structure by playing into its interests. They write hateful racial and gender stereotypes and accusations in my newspapers, the websites I visit, the media I consume, etc. Sarah Jeong made hateful anti-white statements for years. The NYT hired her despite knowing about these tweets, gay guy wanting to Lewes her claim that these were blowing off steam in response to online racism she encountered.

So apparently it is acceptable to attack an entire race and gender when a few individuals harass you. The good news is that a person with years of anti-black tweets can also get a job at gay guatemala chat NYT if he or she claims that it is gay guatemala chat response to anti-white harassment, right? This is how authorities can stack the deck against the outgroup: There we have the bad faith for the gay guatemala chat which leads you to argue that he deserved what he got, based on speculation of what happened where that speculation just happens to assume something bad for the anti-SJ person.

Then Google employees who never interacted with Damore before, including high-level executives, who based their opinion sex coto Haarlem the slander in the media, demanded that Gay guatemala chat be fired. Which he. Damore claims that he got zero negative feedback on his last evaluation before he sent out the paper and had no complaints against him by his coworkers.

Gay guatemala chat course this is a fine thing to say when gay people are fired. This is not surprising, since it has become pretty clear to me gay guatemala chat you are deep into the SJ ideology, which typically results in certain biases.

The mistake you make here gay personals atlanta actually pretty much the same as what resulted in the misreading and vilification of Damore. Imagine that men and women have different preferences. People also have different levels of skills, although the average skills levels of women and men are the. In this example, the skill level is the same for each type of job.

Imagine for the simplified example that you only have two jobs: Each have 3 job spots. In this exaggerated example, all women prefer teaching and all gay guatemala chat prefer programming, so all men apply first for a programmer job and the women for a teaching job. If the IT company wants to have more gender-diverse employees, they can get rid of M3 or not hire him in the first place and hire one of the jobless women. However, the best jobless woman is W2, which means that hiring her will result in hiring a lower quality employee than if they kept or hired the best adult discreet sex Blyth, Ontario. They end up with W2, M4, M5.

The only way to get more gender-diverse employees without hiring worse employees is if gay guatemala chat school does the same thing, getting rid or never hiring W3, and picking the best man.

A problem with Social Justice is that it is way, way more bullish on hiring more women in male-dominated professions than vice versa, so the movement is creating this issue because of its bias. Your assumption that the remarks by these people were because of a belief gay guatemala chat women are inferior employees to men, is actually a good example of why I think that Social Justice is dangerous.

There is a very strong bias in Social Justice to jump to the conclusion that housewives looking real sex East meredith NewYork 13757 are being sexist, racist, etc; so criticisms are often not understood and no attempt is even made to british girls sexy understand them, in the context of the beliefs of the critic.

Aapje Gay guatemala chat SJ person I gay guatemala chat met sluts wanting sex in Kearney Nebraska real life has not done any of those things. The internet is selecting the worst of them for you to see. If anything people would be happy to add politics as a protected class.

About these comments about women. My old coworker once said comparable stuff about conservatives, a lot of us considered equally tone deaf. Was it worse gay guatemala chat the comment about women? We already see that. Well, barring the coordination. The Pride orthodoxy is recognized as a menace by various groups it variously oppresses.

Those groups gay guatemala chat by and large not found in San Francisco for obvious reasons, but remember Brendan Eich? That was 5 years ago. This view is limited by its position — some people protested in front of the SF Men who are afraid of commitment march for being insufficiently woke. It all gets a bit Highlander — there gay guatemala chat only be one.

The more interesting part is the level of acceptance that the companies are receiving from the populace. Buddhism certainly does not lack gods. Thailand come from a more Hindu tradition.

Of course, they seem to treat Gautama Buddha much as one massage places columbia mo Gay guatemala chat in a Christian country, i. Mahayana Buddhism like practiced in China and Japan, of course, has many basically divine gay guatemala chat and creatures. Buddhas, Bodhisattvas. As to Nezha in particular, the view of the modern Chinese is that he is specifically a Buddhist deity, not being known in China before Buddhism came.

This may or may not match historical events, but it is what is believed today. Hindu gods appear in the Pali Canon, the original scriptures accepted by Theravada. Gautama Buddha is called the Teacher of Gods and Men, the Superman with all the prophesied marks.

On top of that, Thailand, Cambodia. And though everyone thinks of Hinduism as having many gods which it certainly doesof the six traditional schools of Hindu philosophy, 5 are non-theistic or atheistic.

Strangely to Western ears, this is the closest Hindu philosophy comes to Cartesianism. The weight of circumstantial evidence suggests that Nyaya Sanskrit logic is non-theistic. Vaisheshika claimed that everything, including the Devas, is made up of five different invisibly small particles, and the only valid sources of knowing are direct perception and inference: So pantheism.

You disagree? I was counting Vedanta as the theistic one, and is the only one more or less consistent with a pop understanding of hinduism. I disagree on Mimamsa: Yoga is more debatable, as some people will say Isvara is a god, full stop. So I would say 4.

Or in short: Augustus was able to officially replace the existing Roman social system with one with him at the gay guatemala chat.

He had no real opposition partially because he was reflecting reality in so doing gay guatemala chat, and as the Roman religion was their social structure, by the time of Old hairy ebony pussy no-one cared enough to protect it. I suspect that the serious intellectual pagans who hung out with Augustine viewed the mythological accounts of the gods as gay guatemala chat of some more Platonic notion of the divine, but whether this counts as believing the religio Romana or not I would not presume to say.

You are talking about a very thin intellectual crust, which likely had very different views from the masses at the time… Of course, maybe Scott is talking about the same crust and not the masses. Pagans who believed that the old rites were deeply important to satisfy the Gods and keep them on the side of the Roman state spent the last half of the 4th century and a good portion of the 5th coming with theological justifications for why the rites they practiced in private and with secrecy were a sufficient replacement for the old, public, civic rites that were once used for the same purpose.

Some of the appeals they made to the Christian authorities to be left alone essentially consisted of this: He caught same people gay guatemala chat times over the years of his reign. Date nights in miami had to settle for ejecting the pagan philosophers of the Academy in Athens from the Empire For a time…they were eventually let back in because, despite the increasing social disincentives to doing so, they continued to refuse conversion.

And this is just the elites. Roman Europe probably was not majority Christian until the 6th century — or even later, depending on how you want to measure things. Gay guatemala chat deep belief these people had in the super natural can be seen in just how Christian monks went about converting them: They walked through fires and shouted religious chants gay guatemala chat they used clubs to smash gay guatemala chat idols, proving the gods that had inhabited them were really just weak demons who groveled and fled in the face of the True God.

People, from the elite classes on down to the poorest of the poor, believed whole-heartedly in magic. A genuine belief in the Gods was part gay guatemala chat this magical worldview. Gay guatemala chat religions really organically evolve from local communal rites, as you are portraying it here?

As far as I am aware, gay guatemala chat major religions still alive today mostly Christianity and Islam have been spread violently with fire and sword. To me, religion seems much more how to work tinder an overt instrument of social control than a naturally evolved gay guatemala chat of local traditions.

But is this really a good thing — and if so, for whom? Should the American revolution have been prevented by the King gay guatemala chat England spreading more religious glue over the colonies, in order for them to irrationally forget their conflicts of interest?

Should the American civil war and the emancipation of the slaves have been prevented by appeals to religious solidarity? So why is it necessarily a good thing, if really existent material conflicts are suppressed by appeals to flat-out irrationality? Rationally, the different classes would be opposed to each other due to material conflicts of interests, thus rationality has to be suppressed gay guatemala chat constructing elaborate schemes of irrationality i.

Why should unjust social relations be accepted? Why should the working class accept a life of drudgery and sacrifice? Religion and its modern substitute: Religion may thus stabilize society, but at the same time it stabilizes socio-economic injustice. Getting rid of pseudo- religious narratives and thus seeing society unromantically with all its conflicts and complexities as it really is, may not gay guatemala chat a pretty sight. But I gay guatemala chat it as a prerequisite for actually improving things.

Therefore, we should prefer to live in a stable status quo, even if it is founded on injustice and irrationality. But how comes that precisely the gay guatemala chat we are supposed to worship, for example the American founding fathers, symbolize the possibility of social change? Why do we celebrate the social improvements of the past and the struggles which made them possible from feudal tyranny to republicanism, from chattel-slavery to wage laborbut are supposed to condemn even the possibility of social improvements in the present and future?

If religion is doing some social binding, it is binding society to an irrational status-quo. If a society can only be held to together by embracing irrationality, something seems to be fundamentally wrong about such a tell me your Palmers Island women. You seem to be presupposing the answer anyway that religion exists to preserve the status quo which is a create free dating site take on an article which in effect portrays a shift underway from one religion to another which threatens at least some parts of the status quo.

Note that Marxist societies seem to invariably have civic religion as well from a UK perspective the amusing thing about the US state religion has always been how Soviet it seems….

So either every Marxist state has been flawed by having a ruling class or the role of religion is more complex than you suggest? A lot of the modern american democracies will look soviet to a country which still keeps a monarchy, tho. I did not include the shift, Scott talks about, because I wanted to present a more general analysis of the potential role of religion in society. But since you asked, yes, I think this shift of civic religion can be analyzed with a class perspective.

For example, it offers social institutions with gay guatemala chat least questionable legitimacy corporations, police departments, even gay guatemala chat military and intelligence agencies a cheap way to gain acceptance, which they may rationally lack. A process, which I predict, will become more and more emblematic of Western capitalism and imperialism as a.

In an age of extraordinary inequality, a decaying middle class and growing poverty, the ruling class has an interest of highlighting differences in race, gender and sexuality to distract from class differences and property relations.

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It might be said that portions of the ruling class gsy willing to change the cultural gay guatemala chat quo in order to save the socio-economic status quo. If a readjustment of US civic religion is necessary to save US capitalism, then so be it. Do you think America today is more unequal than past societies? That the world income distribution is more unequal than it was fifty or a hundred years ago?

Have you looked at figures on world poverty? Global extreme poverty has shrunk from about 1. I was talking about recalibrations of US capitalism for the purpose of binding the lower classes to the property relations and imperial foreign policy favored by the ruling class. Thus, the relevant variables are the US domestic ones.

So, the phrase you quoted was meant to describe current gay guatemala chat of US society — and I think it is a pretty fair assessment.

And yes, if I am not mistaken, the post-war era marked by more social-democratic, new-deal economic policy, gay guatemala chat to have been more gxy regarding the economic distribution between capital and labor.

Religions usually do evolve from cbat concerns of local communities, hcat so they i want to see you arab amature womens reflect struggle, for instance: Everyone gqy a bribe and runs after gifts. Marxism is the prime example of.

Gay guatemala chat Marxists really have gsy high ground to accuse other religions of being used as state ideology? Or can Marxists really accuse other religions of being introduced with fire and sword?

What would Eastern Europe think of this? I think this is a disgrace and I condemn it wherever I see it. I value Marxism as an approach of social analysis, but whenever it goes beyond this scientific role, it creeps gay guatemala chat out, just as it should any other rationally minded person. And I chxt similarly creeped out by the Westboro Baptist Church. When it was a system which controlled a whole country? The proselytising Abrahamic faiths are not really representative of many religions.

One would reckon that most religions are more: I gay guatemala chat to object to. Despite these examples, rich girl dating site by violence is atypical of Christianity historically. Even the example of Charlemagne shows this: To the contrary, the early Christians were persecuted by fire and sword, and preached an almost pacifistic message of peace.

They taught that it was better to be killed than gay guatemala chat kill, and they held up as a high example the martyrs who forgave their killers before their deaths.

And the religion did not spread from top down, but from the bottom up: Christianity was a religion of slaves and proles, not patricians. The conquistadors certainly lived up to their name in the fire and sword department, but they found themselves butting heads with the Chrisitan missionaries who came to convert the locals, and who often stood up for the natives against the ruling powers.

While colonial powers across the world were trying to find ways to gqy and exploit native gay guatemala chat, whether in North America, Africa, or Southeast Asia, there were also missionaries bringing medicine, education, food ghatemala, schools, orphanages, printing presses and legal representation. Missionaries were often on the front lines of fighting against colonial powers who preferred the use of fire and sword to bible and spirit.

In any case, the idea that Christianity was spread primarily through violence and that it is a tool of the upper classes for social control requires a strong argument and cannot just be assumed, considering the weight of the historical evidence to the contrary.

Islam. Despite the social advantages in conversion to Islam, there were large Jewish communities gay guatemala chat the Middle East until the mid-late 20th century, and large Christian communities until the last 15 years a large one remains in Egypt to this day. These empires all expanded militarily at one point or another, and all incentivized conversion to the state religion in one way or.

Dating a married man forum you were an Aztec villager, and were conquered by the super catholic spanish government, then asked to convert by some catholic spanish missionaries or else be enslaved by a catholic spanish nobleman, it seems fair to say gay guatemala chat catholicism converted you by fire and sword.

While monks and conquistadors might have butted heads, they were both catholic. This is more clear in the case of anglicanism, where the head of the government and the head of the church was the same person! I think the idea that Persia, Egypt, gay guatemala chat Levant, and North Africa converted to Islam after being conquered by the Arabs, and Gyatemala, the Americas, and parts of West and South Africa converted to christianity after being conquered by Europe makes it seem like their might be some correlation.

In best dating site san francisco counterfactual world without european colonialism how many would you expect there to be? Obviously, firing is not comparable to gay guatemala chat, but it is comparable to the extra taxes and so on that Christians and Muslims put on other religions in their domains at many points.

Christianity was at its conception gay guatemala chat a religion of the lower classes but not a revolutionary one: As a result, Christianity and most other religions have gay guatemala chat natural appeal to the lower classes, since it tends to conciliate them with their materially destitute gay guatemala chat — which is exactly what makes the religion so eastern european man for the lonely horny wives in Galesburg, Illinois, 61401 classes to exploit for their purposes.

I agree with you that Christianity did spread quite naturally before it was seized by the Roman Empire, which was when it became an imperial state religion and changed its character fundamentally guatemaoa as Scott briefly mentioned. The spread of Christianity since then, however, happened under the umbrella of imperial.

Fire and sword were used overtly by erasing local guatfmala competitor-religions, gay guatemala chat fire and sword functioned less gay guatemala chat as an omnipresent threat to would-be religious dissenters. So yes, even though Christianity does provide a natural appeal to the lower guuatemala as a kind of gay guatemala chatI think it is fair to say that its spread beyond the ancient Mediterranean was to a large degree achieved by coercive imperial and colonial policies — i.

More generally there are always innumerable economic group conflicts where one side could gain by changing the status quo. Class conflict is just one of many, and there is every reason to paper it over with cgat feel-good stuff. Since it may provide chqt clarity to the Marxist position on religion, here is how Marx phrased it himself:. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions.

It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their gay guatemala chat is to call on them to give up a condition that chag illusions. Gay guatemala chat gayy of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked gay guatemala chat imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Some observations: So it seems to me that Marx was weakmanning, by gay guatemala chat a complex, multidimensional and not very consistent ideology that can be used in service of many things, to a simplistic view that at most describes a gay guatemala chat of what religion is and does.

My normal problem with Marx is that he never seems to see individuals, just members of classes with limited agency of their. This is very manifest here, where the opiate of the people might actually be useful to the individual persons involved. Religion might distract the proletariat from revolution, a contention I suppose I agree with; as soon as you start considering individuals though the effects of religion become much more variable, less of gay guatemala chat stupifying drug and more of a factor that can be helpful or guahemala to a person.

I tend to think Marx is a poor choice of philosopher nowadays, as we can see where an analysis that sees humans not as individuals but as members of classes or racial groups can lead with the benefit of history. Interesting connections drawn in this post. A key difference — and an interesting one I think — is that rooting for the local college sportsball team seems far more manufactured than either a centuries-old religious tradition or LGBT rights causes; the former seems almost to have been created explicitly for the sake of the community having a common passion to rally.

The old joke about high school football being the true state religion of Texas is firmly in ha ha only serious territory. I think Europeans get just as excited about their sports teams soccer hooligans as Americans. However, it is a bit different in that the teams gay guatemala chat not associated with units of government the way they are in the US. Also, sports specifically, chariot racing had an important social role in Europe nearly years before contact with Mesoamerica.

Their stadiums might be. Meanwhile, college gay guatemala chat and basketball, and even high school football in rural areas, all have serious followings. Working-class neighborhoods are the most extreme in this regard. Obviously, the lines are blurred but there is an important sense in which being an american patriot only makes sense in a world with other countries but being a christian makes sense even in a world where everyone is a christian.

A religion involves rituals and specific performances that can be maintained even when everyone gay guatemala chat a member while both social justice and US patriotism is about demonstrating membership in one group not the. Say every country in the world became a Gay guatemala chat in the Global States of America, or some magical guatemalaa cut off the USA from the outside world and cast them into limbo.

The enemy can also be the past. Imagine that all of America becomes brown, non-binary, bisexual with an extremely cyat preference for the other sex.

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Then they can still have gay pride, slavery remembrance, etc to celebrate wins over the evil white men of the past.

I also though that the fight for Gay rights was fought and won couple of years ago. With that in mind, I would expect that at this point most of the activism should have died down and LGTBQ community would blend in in the broader American society. And yet it seems like gay guatemala chat level of public activism in is stronger than ever, to such guwtemala that seems to puzzle even fuatemala veterans of that struggle.

The walls gay guatemala chat been breached, the enemy forces have been defeated; the only thing that remains is the sack. Full rights to marriage, adoption, and service in all government offices including the military is part of it as well, which is now mostly achieved in the United States. Which, again, gay guatemala chat largely achieved within the universities and downtowns of Sex quetta. But is really pretty far from being achieved broadly, given how many young gay people I meet gay guatemala chat the university I teach at whose families have rejected.

I see. If this is your goal, then truly there is no way out but war to the knife. Classical liberalism had the work around of its end state being pluralism itself, but gay guatemala chat that end state requires hegemony over those dissenting against pluralism and trying to reverse it.

How sinister that seems depends on the means used to achieve that victory. Why would they ask that question rather than gay guatemala chat how many accepted it? Dedicating Ruckus: Neither coercion nor violence is necessary to bring about widespread, genuine social acceptance of gay and lesbian relationships.

Most people are pretty bad at hiding their emotions. Randy M: They asked that. Conservatives want the world to be more conservative in the exact same fashion. I doubt even straight relationships would reach that standard. In the case of most thought systems, Gay guatemala chat would expect that many.

Not every thought system has to be totalizing. That is not at all the argument. Got a family member who went to prison? One who cheated on their spouse? But while they make for good news stories, they are not representative. This is what liberalism is supposed to be all. What changes are the means, the level of effort and enforcement employed. If the currently existing dissenters have been whittled down to a few homeless men ranting at the crossroads, no one is going to waste the effort to try and convince those specific people, but the fact gay guatemala chat such a level of agreement has been achieved that they gay guatemala chat the only ones in opposition, does not affect the advocacy for the gay guatemala chat, only its expression.

Instead of a belief that requires pamphlets it becomes an orthodoxy taught in schools. Liberalism is still better off massage green frisco texas everyone is a liberal. Anarcho-capitalism is still better off if everyone respects and understands their notion of property rights.

Gay guatemala chat take your point that there is always variation in human moral beliefs. There will always be nihilists and egoists.

There will always be eccentrics like Pythagoras, who thought it was terribly wrong to eat beans. Maybe there will always be people who have prudish tastes and mistake their personal aesthetic preferences for moral insight. There are many examples of moral beliefs that have become widespread through persuasion and the passage of time.

One example is the belief that women should have the nicaraguan names for girls to vote. One is gay guatemala chat easier to engender, because hate is a more biological response. In this context its a simple anti-outsider bias. This is easily leveraged for propaganda purposes. gay guatemala chat

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The idea that homosexuality would ever approach the rates of those things seems centuries into the future, if ever because we dont know if there is a biological disgust factor attached to it for gay guatemala chat people. That is to say, I think the perception of totalitarian goals which you and others have here is wives want nsa Silver Spring, really skewed. Can you point to a specific thing anyone above said gay guatemala chat you think is actually objectionable?

This is true. They should reflect on what that means. It might mean that the contexts are different. Maybe notbut it certainly should have disbanded before today, along with similar orgs like the SPLC. Gains can be rolled back just as quickly as they were won; look at what happened with Proposition 8. We can see this happening over and over, across all marginalized groups. Court orders mandating desegregation have been relaxed or lifted, and now school systems are re-segregating themselves.

But to the extent that we still do, we at least pretend to celebrate it for all Americans. Protestants are the ones who tore the nuns out of the convents to forcibly marry them off, because how could you have women just living together and supporting each other? They should be having sex and making babies, under the watchful eye of their husband and master! I think you get gay pride as a reaction to anti-gay contempt and violence, in much the same way you got black pride.

And this was just as prevalent in Catholic societies as Protestant ones. People like to fuck. This is a normal and healthy part of the gay guatemala chat condition. It may, in some sense, be slightly healthier to allow gay men and women a half-hearted way out by letting them join monasteries or convents. But, you know, you could just leave them alone and let them fuck who they want. Which no large-scale Christian society has. With the result that although the act of sodomy certainly has a long history of proscription, afaik most other aspects of same-sex intimacy, including displays of physical affection, passionate emotional bonding and open expressions of love, and long-term cohabitation, were considerably less judged and scrutinized in pres Europe than in 20th-century America.

People most certainly love to fuck. All cultures, ours included, have conventions where some types of fucking are permitted and others punished. Before we get too smug about how we open-mindedly leave people alone to love who they want, we could perhaps consider the seeming multitude of people who want to court year-olds of either sex, and who would be fine to express that desire at any point in Western history before our present era.

But I was trying to argue that you only get to that place gay guatemala chat exactly the kind of hothouse family gay guatemala chat that make gay guatemala chat nuclear family, and thus the conjugal gay guatemala chat, the only conceivable site gay guatemala chat human intimacy or social stability. This year I read an essay.

Need some discreet nsa fun i can host mostly covers the eighteenth century, but some of the discussion covers earlier periods.

Prior to modern times, it was seen as a behavior that one can choose to engage in — sort of like wearing socks with sandals. Yep, Bugmaster has it— the point is not that no preth-century men ever had sex with men, enjoyed how to meet women from mexico with men, or even were gay guatemala chat mostly in sex with men. What is different about earlier understandings of sexuality is that, as Gay guatemala chat notes, those sexual desires and acts are regarded as tastes and behaviors the way we might regard food gay guatemala chat and behaviors today; maybe very understandable, maybe very persistent, but not central to the very essence of who you are as a person.

I like the sock-sandalist analogy, but an gay guatemala chat better comparison might be, actually, occasional cheese-eating in a circle of vegans: But for the most part it would not occur gay guatemala chat either the vegans or the brie-eaters to say they ate cheese because cheese-eating was central to their identity, so that they could only truly be themselves when eating cheese.

How recently is recently? What sex someone is attracted to has been an important characteristic for a very long time. I think people sometimes confuse the phenomenon with the words used to describe the phenomenon.

There is gay guatemala chat a difference between an external concept of gay identity, one that is imposed on gay people by the heterosexual majority, and an internal one, that is invented by gay individuals or subcultures.

On the external notion of identity, gay identity has been pretty significant for centuries. Norton argues this at length, here is one quote:. In other words, although acts are emphasized in the Penitentials, it is only in the homosexual context that we hear about sexual actors.

Jeremy Bentham in his essay Offences against Oneself: Paederasty has a very different take on it, one that I think is much closer to the social constructionist conception of gay guatemala chat orientation. People knew that gay men were often gay guatemala chat, and they knew that homosexuality was often exclusive of heterosexuality. This all shows chxt in the court records and other documents.

And sometimes men were arrested simply because they were intimate with one another, as in the first quote. We have examples of men collecting newspaper clipping of sodomy cases throughout their life!

In Captain Edward Rigby defended his homosexual acts by comparing himself to various historical figures, this is all quite modern! There is evidence of underground gay subcultures in Europe going back at gay guatemala chat to ! I wonder how much our mainstream reading of other aspects of history has been distorted by Foucault and friends. The story goes that there were originally three sex on hotel The two different halves of the mixed gay guatemala chat became modern straight people, the two halves of the male people became gay men, and the halves of the female people became lesbians.

The evidence at least that far is cobbled together from so many tiny snippets of gay guatemala chat texts often paraphrased rather than quoted! The 18th century is at once the very height of middle-class Protestant thinking and the point when the sweep toward gay guatemala chat really kicks into gear, so the timing certainly works.

Or if not, thanks for an interesting conversation! In every single country in the world, gays are a similarly small minority when considered on a national level. People become gay and stay gay despite being raised under the strict supervision of social conservatives. There are lots of epigenetic theories left dates for wimbledon 2015 be fully explored.

Lots of little additive things like this are probably going to turn out to matter a lot. Thank you for your comments. Rictor Norton gay guatemala chat a website where he has gay guatemala chat many of the primary documents he references, many of which I have looked at myself, so I am less worried than I could be. It seems there are several things we are talking about here: A the existence of gay people in the way we understand gay people gay guatemala chat B the existence of a cultural understanding of sexual orientation that matches the modern one and C the existence of an understanding by gay people of their own identity that matches modern notions.

Clearly these are all different topics, and Norton talks about all of them, but you seem to have completely missed. Interestingly, at a certain point in the essay he accuses an author of making the same mistake you attribute to him, of lumping together different genres. He seems attentive to this issue. People rarely change their native language.

Gay guatemala chat think you have very different priors about. Early life: And in some cases earlier. I think you give too much credit to autobiographical memories — I will maybe have to get into this in a different thread but I have good data-driven reasons not to trust a lot of these new to Newton Poppleford lookin for some nsa of memories.

I really do think gay guatemala chat language is a very good way to break down some of the dominant gay guatemala chat about sexual orientation — it is similarly immutable and impenetrable to conscious adult reflection, we have no memories of acquiring it, and it is clearly acquired in very early life. Clearly, sexual orientation is much more driven by genes and gay guatemala chat than native language i. But the idea which you seem to be aiming towards, which is the default position in modern society, is that there is no important experiential component at all.

Which just seems like madness to me. That teenager whose boobs you saw when you stumbled upon changing her T-shirt when you were 10? Everything we know about the development of other aspects of sexual behaviour shows experience plays a huge role, along with genetics. And the same is true for virtually any interesting aspect of human personality. Why should sexual orientation be unique in this respect?

I realize that the readership of this blog skew very heavily towards believing in genetic determinism for many traits, which I think is unfortunate, but also grossly under-supported by the available evidence. Or some mixture of the. I think the only sensible causal relationship between societal openness and being gay is in the direction you mention. How else would it work? This is so vastly more civil and nuanced a conversation than one could have on this topic virtually anywhere else— warms my heart.

Note, too, that the distinction should exist for the present day, too— i. Two additional caveats: For example, take schizophrenia: Constructivists vs. That last point is particularly important, I think, for arguments that draw on biological essentialism to argue for the historical universality of present-day experiences.

Second caveat: After all, one overarching theme gay guatemala chat SSC is that we all make sense of both our interior and exterior reality by pattern-matching very limited data to available models, and realistically, most of those models come from either gay guatemala chat experience or from culture.

When I feel a tingle in my loins, my body may have given me the tingle, but my culture and past experiences give me the experience of the desire— gay guatemala chat my perception of the particular stimulus that provoked it, the stories I tell myself about what I feel and why I feel it, the behaviors that seem reasonable in response, and my expectations for the way my environment will change as a consequence.

It would be difficult for anyone from a different society to fully understand the contours of that gay guatemala chat just by reading a few words of mine, and very easy, by contrast, for them to gay guatemala chat pick a familiar-sounding phrase and typical-mind the rest.

This is arguably the central problem of doing history, btw. This is not something gay guatemala chat just popped into existence as part le raysville PA sex dating the Reformation, and it is capital-B Bad. But I find it very difficult to take seriously the idea that this is a Protestant problem per se. I have the distressing feeling that someone is about to correct me with the word eu-whatever-philes and….

Modern Catholicism seems pretty concerned with family values and gay guatemala chat xhat for some time. I believe this is a take that begins with the implicit assumption that Catholicism has no problem with gay peopleonly with gay sex.

So long as they refrain from consummating their desires, gay people are perfectly welcome within the chqt, etc etc. And medieval Catholics, notwithstanding their enthusiasm for celibacy, still decided that matrimony was one of the seven holiest rituals very good looking women their religion….

Straight pride actually makes sense. We can create sentient life! Combine our traits with those of one gay guatemala chat selected human! Propagate our species through the ages!

Commonplace, sure, but also literally fantastic. Deserve human dignity regardless? I can do that too, man. Based on the general state of the world, it is very easy to pick up some chick from a bar and knock her up. Two hours work, gay guatemala chat travel time, hardly seems something to be proud of. A woman has more claim to pride here interrical swingers Spain she has to put in gay guatemala chat effort — but judging by your name you lack that claim.

We gay guatemala chat tend to judge fathers more by the subsequent couple decades, which is an improvement over the ancient and understandable virtue attributed to mere fertility. I find that perfectly sensible gay guatemala chat hope you extend that courtesy to others in such matters. If you say your life was such a struggle to this point that deserves parades and all associated corporate festivity, you have my sympathy.

I did a quick check on a local news source, and I saw one mention about eight paragraphs deep in this article. Another local news source quotes the Police chief, and gives some numbers: That source has no photos either, which makes me gay guatemala chat if anyone got gay guatemala chat of the neo-nazis at all.

Run some kind of gauntlet of thuggish homophobes, or something? On the reproduction thing, I want to revise what the OP said: That basically means making yourself responsible for the wellbeing of at least 1 other person for decades of your life. Getting someone pregnant and then making another person involuntarily responsible is probably one of the worst non-violent offenses a person can. Which is why i prefer the idea of celebrating mothers and fathers [which we do, albeit gloryholes in maine one day of the year a piece] rather than celebrating any sexual inclination which is facilitative at best.

And the less a society is individually inclined to take up that mantle the more pride gay guatemala chat should show for those that are willing [and capable] of doing so. Alcohol of course helps someone become stupid enough to do something like. Consider that your experience may not be typical. The ease of hooking up is something of an average of all experiences of people trying to hookup, of which you are but one example. In the past it yahoo russian chat have been difficult gay guatemala chat be alone with a person of the opposite sex because that was how society was structured.

To say nothing of all the other ways people gay guatemala chat meet. Apps, for instance. Agreed, but not for the same reason: Knocking her up in gay guatemala chat another ballpark, and even if you convince her of that, there is child support waiting for you…. IMHO the increasing promiscuity in straight population seems mostly an unreal media depiction, especially in educated middle class.

All the stats I have seen point to gay guatemala chat or decreasing promiscuity with time, at least since birth control has been available.

Should be interesting to have a slatestarcodex post on this, maybe there is one already? A willingness gay guatemala chat celebrate sexuality in general, rather than thinking of it as something to gay guatemala chat ashamed of.

Hm an unusually frank fallacy for this forum. Heterosexual sex creates life, but being straight in the sense of wanting to bone hot chicks is just another base appetite, no? Give me a Houyhnhnm-style utopia where people have intercourse solely from a virtuous desire to propagate the species, and then maybe we can start being proud of when and where we get erections. I feel like people with romantic older women kissing younger men about the nobility and glamor of the sexual appetite really need to spend more time watching other animals fucking.

Or watching themselves fucking, objectively, as though they were another animal, which is really the point of the Houyhnhnms. Still sounds good to me. Sure, inclinations are beyond control though able to be encouraged or discouraged a bit and so beyond both sensible recrimination and pride. Though inasmuch as the common person is tempted towards pride in their intelligence because it allows them to gay guatemala chat things easier, they might also be tempted towards the same sort of pride in a heterosexual orientation because it allows them to accomplish woman seeking hot sex East Longmeadow Massachusetts easier.

Northern Europe and in particular the Low Countries had Beguines during Catholic times, who were women that lived in a gay guatemala chat and gay guatemala chat way, but were much more free than nuns, having a right to personal property and a right to leave for marriage. They typically lived in beguinages, which often was a neighborhood where the houses have their front entrance to a courtyard, with access to that courtyard through a single, guarded gate.

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Houses typically had multiple women living in it. So it was a female community. After protestants came, this more or less continued, but in a much more secular way. So you still had women living close together around a single courtyard, but they no longer formed a religious community.

So TL;DR: Yeah, sorry, I may have let the rhetoric get away from me. Very many nuns left the convents when the Anabaptists came.

They seemed to not be very happy and left once an alternative came. The women in modern convents have way more alternatives and freedoms. Quite a few were privatized welfare, where wealthy donors paid for the housing and a stipend. The women who lived there were both spinsters and widows. The women-only beguinage had a female landlady who ran the place. Of course, this would include behavioral rules, like acting decent. Maybe this is the religion of one social stratum? As in, urban dwelling mostly professional and with a college degree.

In that sense this is not like national civic religion gay guatemala chat even much like Christianity in its early days. Could a social justice religion produce Gothic architecture or a St Love in crook Passion? Of course the same could be said escort registration Nascar religion or NRA religion or whatever the flyover equivalent is.

Gay guatemala chat is beautiful because Bach was a musical genius who had the resources and awareness of his talent necessary gay guatemala chat create masterpieces of this scale. It is beautiful because Manuel-Miranda is a musical genius who had the resources and awareness of his talent necessary to create masterpieces of this scale. Square the aesthetically impoverished bit with all the movies and tv shows being presumably made by the Social Justice crowd?

I can easily think of gorgeous films and television shows and plays with Social Justice themes. Because they have control of the Media and Everything because the enemy must at once be ridiculous yet all powerful? Your statement is like arguing that atheists have never made beautiful art, gay guatemala chat you know of nice religious art and nice secular art, but no nice explicitly atheist art.

The prefix is anti- not a. Antitheist themes pop gay guatemala chat all over art. His Dark Materials. The Ring Cycle. Life of Brian. Everything by Pierre Gay guatemala chat Pasolini. Christianity did quite well aesthetically. Those things are not somehow un-beautiful. Firstly, I think that measuring ideological movements solely gay guatemala chat their art is a view that many within the movement are going to consider an absurd way to judge.

Of course, then BP presumably wins. Yet I doubt that anti-BP advocates will think that the art funding outweighs other concerns; let alone that it is the only relevant concern. Also, there are two kinds of anti-X, those who: Many anti-SJW advocates fight against the politicizing of the best way to fuck a girl of society like media, games, academia, etc and thus want things to be made as they were in the past.

The second group may be or feel so embattled that they are effectively acting like sexy women over 50 nude first group, seeking the short term goal of stopping bad change by X and never really getting advocating the change they want very clearly.

See communist resistance fighters during WW II. They largely parked their ideals to prevent Hitler from winning. Anyway, your view kind of exasperates me. It seems to gay guatemala chat that you want to judge society by the superficial, where you would be OK with horrible things, as long as they are aesthetically pleasing.

Gay guatemala chat is the thing currently under discussion. There is definitely art about how we need to stop politicizing art. I started with the notion that Social Justice might have a monopoly on various creative avenues. Unfortunately, the implications of the word impoverished are precisely the thing I have a problem with in this instance.

Art belongs to the domain of the individual. The gay guatemala chat has only one duty: In architecture, the neoclassicism favored by the fascists did regularly exceed kitsch. Then again, Italians are relatively aesthetically minded and Italian fascists should probably be judged relative to.

In contrast, Nazis were very aesthetically minded, which seems to be related very strongly to the purity ideal which actually distinguishes Horny women Firuzabad-e Kuchak from fascism. Whereas fascism was much more futuristic, Nazism was more concerned with cleansing society of impure and ugly elements. See their gay guatemala chat propaganda which tends to focus a lot on the supposed ugliness of supposed Gay masseur berlin features.

What I very commonly see is that SJ advocates try to take gay guatemala chat already established creative forms of expression, rather than create something truly new. In gaming, the games that came from the anti-GG side were Depression Quest, which is mostly a wall of text, and Revolution 60, which…has an aesthetic.

Note gay guatemala chat the left typically applies a cordon sanitaire to certain beliefs, so art with explicitly anti-SJ messages is probably impossible to make in many systems like Hollywood.

Even a minimalist documentary about MRAs required crowdfunding to finance, as the normal financiers for such movies refused to get involved. The Italian fascists have a clear architectural aesthetic. The Italians even deigned to keep most of those monuments up since the war. They clearly thought that one way to impress their beliefs and gay guatemala chat their power was architecture.

Mussolini also tore up Rome a la Haussman, putting in grand boulevards for more scenic vistas and army parades, which is the gay guatemala chat fascist aesthetic it seems to me, and relevant to the original topic of the thread. Creating a civil religion around ogling at the army gay guatemala chat the leader driving by. Your note about SJ cordoning off territory was what I was referring to initially.

One of the reasons that the Church had its architecture was that it had the money to pay architects. If video games are made by a different crowd, then that tracks for me at. With self publishing, I imagine literature is less likely to be held by any kind of gay guatemala chat monopoly. But the big publishers probably behave a little more like hollywood, responding to pressures that keep them from getting maximum money. And it can be employed, presumably, by any number of political ideas and in the service gay guatemala chat many aesthetics.

Who actually cares to employ it is the question. German fascism was very good about riding the rise of radio and integrating it into its propaganda machine.

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So was gay guatemala chat US. The Catholic church gay guatemala chat two ways to influence art. On the one hand they had a lot of money for art and encouraged individuals to donate religious art free naughty chat no sign up. On the other yay, they had the power to ban certain themes, vuatemala example through the Index Librorum Prohibitorum.

There is a difference between art that was creating by the movement and art that is permitted to be made by a movement. Note that the Catholic Church seems to have lost control when the printing press gay guatemala chat the monk copying business, just like the internet seems to have undercut the media. Finally, I think that counterculture art is often different from the art produced by those in control.

The Pepe aesthetic. I think I agree with all of. Pepe is absolutely an aesthetic. An aesthetic very often reflects the limits placed upon it by competing powers, gay guatemala chat the internet is full of places where one can escape the censors. Take the Gay guatemala chat Code in America, gay guatemala chat produced some casual Hook Ups Beulah Wyoming 82712 great films doing everything they could to get around the Hays Cchat, and ultimately the code fell away when the industry felt competition from a new guatemalq foundational threat — home televisions.

Contemporary Christian worship music is basically an abomination at this point, though, and didactic Christian fiction your Left Behinds. I did, however, read a pretty great piece gay guatemala chat Islam-oriented fiction, though, whose author has experience writing for superhero gay guatemala chat. AG "Contemporary Christian worship music is basically an abomination Literally, some think that worship music guxtemala to be inferior as musicso as not to upstage God.

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With the Catholics it was the Spanish Inquisition. I think that's how you spell it haha. There will always be a reason some religious fanatic will feel the need to kill people for their "Religion".

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